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Post by tripolation on Dec 9, 2009 3:14:29 GMT
This is where me and a lot of other Christians disagree, so I thought I would make a thread about it, since I have access to that button apparently. ;D I find it hard to believe that Jesus would truly be upset that there were people who didn't believe in him. I always equated it to the fact that even though your parents wanted you to always listen to them since they knew better than you, that they would understand you will make mistakes, and that they will still love you, even when you didn't listen to them. Wouldn't Jesus, who is supposed to be all-loving and all-forgiving, forgive the good people who are just either of a different theistic belief, or even, no belief at all? The best way I heard what I think he would say when these people were confronted by him is, "Without condoning, or condemning, I understand." And yes, I so stole that from Dr. Manhattan.  I'd love to hear from people who disagree with me. |
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Post by ydoaPs on Dec 9, 2009 3:26:28 GMT
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naz
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Post by naz on Dec 9, 2009 17:08:58 GMT
This is where me and a lot of other Christians disagree, so I thought I would make a thread about it, since I have access to that button apparently. ;D I find it hard to believe that Jesus would truly be upset that there were people who didn't believe in him. I always equated it to the fact that even though your parents wanted you to always listen to them since they knew better than you, that they would understand you will make mistakes, and that they will still love you, even when you didn't listen to them. Wouldn't Jesus, who is supposed to be all-loving and all-forgiving, forgive the good people who are just either of a different theistic belief, or even, no belief at all? The best way I heard what I think he would say when these people were confronted by him is, "Without condoning, or condemning, I understand." And yes, I so stole that from Dr. Manhattan. I'd love to hear from people who disagree with me. How about people who agree with you? This idea that God is going to torture non-Christians for all eternity in a lake of fire and brimstone is primitive, brutal, and frankly quite sickening to me. Is this is truly the case such a deity is not worthy of worship. It would be in need of salvation itself. |
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Post by tripolation on Dec 9, 2009 20:46:58 GMT
How about people who agree with you? This idea that God is going to torture non-Christians for all eternity in a lake of fire and brimstone is primitive, brutal, and frankly quite sickening to me. Is this is truly the case such a deity is not worthy of worship. It would be in need of salvation itself. This is what I think as well...I just don't see God being capable of such evil, and that man has twisted his words to propagate their own agenda throughout history. And ydoaPs, I've watched that video and thoroughly enjoyed it, but I don't see what it has to do with my question, aside from the ending, which is just an eloquent restatement of my OP. ;D |
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Post by ydoaPs on Dec 9, 2009 20:54:12 GMT
So it has nothing to do with your OP except where it directly discusses the same thing? ok.  |
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Post by revnkev on Dec 10, 2009 4:03:09 GMT
I'm new so first I will say howdy!
Not saying whether I agree with you or not but playing Devil's advocate with you and curious to your take on this particular scripture?
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cleo
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Post by cleo on Dec 10, 2009 11:07:01 GMT
I am afraid that I am another Christian who will not be disagreeing with you! The concept of God punishing for eternity in Hell makes a mockery of his goodness and nature. If one truly believes that this what what the Bible teaches, then it would be humane to perform abortions and euthanaise children.- to prevent them growing up and risking hell.... God becomes a psychotic monster. If I were to have the ability to create a being, and to raise it in order to torture it for eternity if it did not worship and follow me, then I would be considered a complete nut job. Why do Christians so readily accept this view of God- I think it is blasphemous. I believe that throughout centuries, this view and interpretation of Hell has been perpetuated in order to subjugate groups of people and keep control. This is so counter the gospel, as Jesus said he came to set us free! I do not completely claim to understand all the passages regarding what happens after we die, but I tend to take a view that eternal life is something that is bestowed on those that choose to accept Jesus as their saviour. I also hope that there are many people who have done this without knowing who it is they are following- I think it is quite possible for folks to have 'met' and accepted Jesus by a different name... I also think that there are many people who think they have followed Jesus- who have completely missed the point and the person! I know that Wikipaedia is not overly reliable, but I think this link is helpful and interesting: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annihilationism |
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Post by drpepper on Dec 10, 2009 13:21:29 GMT
Problem with the bible and how it approaches the subject of a God is that it was written when behavior modification methods were based on threats and reward. The old carrot and stick approach. I also find it interesting that the idea where you punish the entire class because of the actions of a few seems to still be used by those in authority.
These ideas were accepted and amplified as Christianity grew and developed its early beginnings and into the middle ages.
A lot of folk still accept the bible as the ultimate authority in science and do not question anything about what it says even though it was written by a few Jewish guys telling all sorts of weird stories.
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naz
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Post by naz on Dec 10, 2009 15:53:13 GMT
Jesus never preached about hell as conceptualized by later Christians. What he preached was Gehenna, a very different concept. The Jews who heard him speak about it knew exactly what he was talking about as all Jews (except the Sadducees) believed in it. Jesus never indicated he was talking about anything different from what they already believed. He was not presenting a new teaching here at all. But since we did not live in that culture the concept is foreign to us except in the corrupted version the church eventually developed. An idea which has become a very destructive concept in presenting the gospel message.
The concept of Gehenna differed from the later idea in three distinct and important ways:
1. Ending up there was based on one's actions, not beliefs.
2. It was not just a place for unrepentant sinners but a place of purification for the believer as well.
3. It was not a place of eternal punishment.
In my next post (don't want to make this one too long) I'm going to show using Scripture that Jesus and the Apostles taught all these things.
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Post by naz on Dec 10, 2009 15:56:41 GMT
So let's look at these three concepts in order.
As I said Jesus taught that a person winds up in hell because of their actions, not their beliefs as is commonly taught today. Here are the Scriptures that state this outright:
Mat 13:41-43 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.
Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Jhn 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Rev 20:11-13 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward [is] with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Also included here should be the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus. The Rich Man was sent to Gehenna because of his failure to care for the poor at his gates. And then there is the section in Matthew 25 which discusses what happens to those who do not help their fellow man:
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
I could list many more scriptures in a similar vein but I think that's enough to establish the idea.
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naz
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Post by naz on Dec 10, 2009 16:10:08 GMT
The bible teaches that sin has consequences and that this applies to everyone, Christian and non-Christian alike. Let's look at some more Scripture:
Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Who is Jesus speaking to here? Just unbelievers? Would it make any sense that God would judge unbelievers on this and give Christians a free pass? Or how about this one?
Mat 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Who is Jesus addressing here? Isn't he telling believers to get rid of anything that causes them to sin so they won't experience hell?
As I mentioned the purgatorial aspect of Gehenna was well known in Jesus' time. The rabbis believed that the "average" sinner would only spend no more than 12 months there before being admitted to Paradise. Jesus doesn't talk about that but he also doesn't seem to disagree at least as things have been recorded. And he does allude to this idea in the same passage I quoted above:
Mat 5:21-26 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.' But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, 'Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire. Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. "Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.
Since he talks about hell in this passage I don't think he means a literal prison here but hell. And he says you can get out when you have paid the penalty.
I think Paul talks about this too in this passage:
1Cr 3:11-15 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
Okay, so what is this really saying? Christians are going to burn in hell a little while before they're allowed into heaven? Well, not exactly. I am of the opinion the fire of hell is not really to be taken literally. I mean how would you burn an immaterial soul anyway? I think it refers to a purifying fire, a refiner's fire. Like Paul says it would burn up the wood and straw and leave untouched the gold, silver, and precious stones. That our conscience is "set on fire" in being shown our sins. What that would mean in real terms I don't know. But I think the outcome would be that a person would come to see there sin as really wrong and leave it behind. I mean sure, we all admit sin is wrong but yet we still all do it anyway from time to time. I think the point is to bring us to the place where we just stop doing it. Like for good. Because how could we bring any part of a sinful nature into a perfect world? Would we not corrupt that perfect world?
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Post by revnkev on Dec 10, 2009 16:15:03 GMT
I have pretty much held this same view point. I do not necessarily believe in a hell literally though and kind of take it metaphorically.
I actually believe fear and faith is all that exists in our conscious and you reap accordingly to the work you produce from each.
So this idea that it is work based has truth but as long as you understand that it's your beliefs that determines the righteousness of your work whether it is of faith or fear.
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naz
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Post by naz on Dec 10, 2009 16:24:04 GMT
Not sure I understand. Could you elaborate?
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Post by revnkev on Dec 10, 2009 16:24:53 GMT
For an example I will say that helping out someone who is down and out to impress others that our watching doesn't have the same merit as helping out someone out of kindness and love when no one is watching even though the same exact actions might be applied.Same work but you will reap different consequences.
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naz
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Post by naz on Dec 10, 2009 16:30:45 GMT
For an example I will say that helping out someone who is down and out to impress others that our watching doesn't have the same merit as helping out someone out of kindness and love when no one is watching even though the same exact actions might be applied.Same work but you will reap different consequences. Ah, okay, I understand and agree. I think what Christianity is really supposed to be about is transforming human beings into ethical creatures who naturally do good for good's sake alone. |
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