naz
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Post by naz on Dec 14, 2009 17:11:09 GMT
Most theists, and even Deists for that matter, believe in a deity which preceded and created the universe (there are some exceptions to the rule such as Hindus who believe in an eternally existent universe). Billions of people on this planet hold to this belief and have no intellectual qualms regarding it. In fact they put forth the idea as being the most rational explanation as to why the universe exists.
I'm not going to go into why I personally have a lot of trouble with this concept. The atheists here no doubt understand the problems inherent with such a scenario. What I want to do instead is to examine whether or not it would be possible for something like a god to come into existence by purely natural means, i.e. via evolution.
Now from scientific study it has been currently determined that the universe is just under 14 billion years old. Our own earth is estimated at being just under 5 billion years old. It has taken most of that time to produce a species which has the intelligence and self awareness of human beings.
Now scientists has discovered that there have been stars for almost as long as the universe itself has existed. If those stars had planets, and if those planets were favorable to the formation of life, and knowing that intelligent self aware life can evolve within a time period of 5 billion years, it is possible that such life has been around for possibly 8 billion years or more.
Now imagine what our own species might achieve (if we last) in the next three billion years. We have already entered a period of unprecedented and exponential growth in technology and scientific understanding. What might that look like three billion years hence? Might not any humans existing at that time seem like virtual gods to us in the 21st century? Even today, as has happened in the past as well, men from technological advanced areas of this present world can be mistaken for gods by primitive peoples. To them, we possess miraculous powers they cannot begin to understand.
One the things that has been happening in our own culture has been a great advance in medical care (at least for those who can afford it--but let's not get off on that tangent). People are living longer and longer lives in our society (though not necessarily higher quality lives). Is it possible for our species to achieve immortality (one of the defining aspects of deity)? We certainly have a long way to go on that score but again given billion years of development it does not seem unattainable.
Now as a side note I personally have no problem with the idea of disembodied consciousness. In fact I think there is good evidence to support it but I know most atheists won't agree. But I could even conceive of a time when human beings left their physical bodies behind altogether. And perhaps it might even be possible to join our individual consciousnesses together and voila you've got a pretty good case for a deity there. But even if that is not possible as long as the beings achieved physical immortality they could still be considered godlike. After all many of the gods conceived of in the past were not incorporeal.
So now just imagine if one of these ancient beings, or group of beings (or collective consciousness of an ancient race), visited this planet some time in its ancient past. And what if these beings interacted with the human beings it (they) encountered? The humans are of course would consider them to be gods if they displayed their "powers". And perhaps that is exactly what the being(s) wished. Just about all the miraculous and supernatural events depicted in the bible could be merely the result of a very advanced technology. And some things do sound downright sci-fi (Ezekiel's' wheel within a wheel, Jesus' "teleportation" into the heavens, etc.). Imagine such things as the Red Sea (or Sea of Reeds) being parted by means of a force field. You get the picture.
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Post by ydoaPs on Dec 17, 2009 19:52:48 GMT
The ignostic in me wants to know what you mean by 'god.'  Sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. |
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Post by slamminsam on Dec 18, 2009 5:34:26 GMT
Ah, NOW you have made an interesting subject!  I really don't know.  If I come up with something better, I'll let you know!  However, it seems that the deities of some other faiths evolved! Norse myths-they develop out of the cosmic nothingness. I think the Greek deities came out of nothingness, too. Sort of like evolution. I know it's weird for a fairly conservative Christian like me to entertain such thoughts, but I'm a weird guy! ;D The mod in me wants to mention that this belongs in a Religious section, not under Atheism. But I told the mod in me to shut up!  |
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emuse
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Post by emuse on Dec 18, 2009 11:15:31 GMT
Hi naz - you asked, "Could God Have Evolved?" Here are my (an atheist's) thoughts on the matter.
Firstly, the idea of the creator evolving seems to rule out certain conceptions of God. For example, the Biblical God states, "I am the same yesterday, today and forever." An evolved and an evolving being could make no such claim.
Secondly, postulating a God to explain evolved, intelligent life on this planet seems to run on the assumption that evolved intelligent life must be explicable in terms of something else. That being the case, then if the postulated God is said to be evolved then an explanation for his existence must be found ... otherwise the assumption upon which he was postulated has been contradicted! If it is said that such a being could evolve without an intelilgent designer then why postulate him anyway? We could just make the same assumption of the life that is in front of us and more self-evident. He seems to become an unecessary postulate.
Hopefully this provides a good starting point for discussion.
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naz
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Post by naz on Dec 18, 2009 16:23:33 GMT
The ignostic in me wants to know what you mean by 'god.' Good question! I can only describe a god in terms of my own experiences. |
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naz
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Post by naz on Dec 18, 2009 16:27:28 GMT
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Post by drpepper on Dec 18, 2009 21:07:34 GMT
As an atheist I must approach this question from the stand point that some god like thing (the one that is described in the bible) actually exists in whatever form one can imagine it exists. That is the problem.
Things evolve because of their nature. The universe evolves because matter combines and converts to energy and other matter, slowly changing over time. Organic beings evolve because of small errors in replication so that some forms are better adapted for reproduction in a changing environment. What is the nature of God? It is pretty much up to human interpretation.
It all comes down to change because of the nature of the universe. Since God is not of this universe. (How can it be if it created it from nothing?) He shouldn't change.
If, however, you read what men have written in the past god is more like a human life form with emotions, wants, likes and dislikes. This is hard to fathom when we know that these things have evolved in species here on earth as a way to better adapt to situations encountered here on earth.
According to the bible said god has changed its mind (if you can call it that) after killing 99% of the human race. Which doesn't make sense as far as how to change human behavior. It sure didn't seem to do much good. Also having his own son killed and resurrected doesn't make much sense either. I guess you could say god evolves if this is all true since maybe he has learned from his mistakes?
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naz
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Post by naz on Dec 18, 2009 23:10:30 GMT
As an atheist I must approach this question from the stand point that some god like thing (the one that is described in the bible) actually exists in whatever form one can imagine it exists. That is the problem. Things evolve because of their nature. The universe evolves because matter combines and converts to energy and other matter, slowly changing over time. Organic beings evolve because of small errors in replication so that some forms are better adapted for reproduction in a changing environment. What is the nature of God? It is pretty much up to human interpretation. It all comes down to change because of the nature of the universe. Since God is not of this universe. (How can it be if it created it from nothing?) He shouldn't change. If, however, you read what men have written in the past god is more like a human life form with emotions, wants, likes and dislikes. This is hard to fathom when we know that these things have evolved in species here on earth as a way to better adapt to situations encountered here on earth. According to the bible said god has changed its mind (if you can call it that) after killing 99% of the human race. Which doesn't make sense as far as how to change human behavior. It sure didn't seem to do much good. Also having his own son killed and resurrected doesn't make much sense either. I guess you could say god evolves if this is all true since maybe he has learned from his mistakes? I'm not saying such a being performed any of the miracles recorded in the bible. I am just saying such a being could do so with very advanced technology. I don't know that any being could cause the kind of flood recorded in the bible. And as far as I know there is no scientific evidence any such event occurred. Now if such beings as I have suggested do exist they would not necessarily need to be ethically advanced. It could be that some are drawn to the darker sides of their own natures. And a being who is extremely powerful and evil would be quite formidable. I think the type of being described in the old testament is generally not a nice fellow. Maybe not thoroughly evil but hardly what I would call good. Most of his supposed displays of power are acts of destruction. Seldom does he do much to help human beings. I think you really have to think outside the atheist/theist box to get where I am coming from on this. |
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Post by drpepper on Dec 19, 2009 1:24:18 GMT
As an atheist I must approach this question from the stand point that some god like thing (the one that is described in the bible) actually exists in whatever form one can imagine it exists. That is the problem. Things evolve because of their nature. The universe evolves because matter combines and converts to energy and other matter, slowly changing over time. Organic beings evolve because of small errors in replication so that some forms are better adapted for reproduction in a changing environment. What is the nature of God? It is pretty much up to human interpretation. It all comes down to change because of the nature of the universe. Since God is not of this universe. (How can it be if it created it from nothing?) He shouldn't change. If, however, you read what men have written in the past god is more like a human life form with emotions, wants, likes and dislikes. This is hard to fathom when we know that these things have evolved in species here on earth as a way to better adapt to situations encountered here on earth. According to the bible said god has changed its mind (if you can call it that) after killing 99% of the human race. Which doesn't make sense as far as how to change human behavior. It sure didn't seem to do much good. Also having his own son killed and resurrected doesn't make much sense either. I guess you could say god evolves if this is all true since maybe he has learned from his mistakes? I'm not saying such a being performed any of the miracles recorded in the bible. I am just saying such a being could do so with very advanced technology. I don't know that any being could cause the kind of flood recorded in the bible. And as far as I know there is no scientific evidence any such event occurred. Now if such beings as I have suggested do exist they would not necessarily need to be ethically advanced. It could be that some are drawn to the darker sides of their own natures. And a being who is extremely powerful and evil would be quite formidable. I think the type of being described in the old testament is generally not a nice fellow. Maybe not thoroughly evil but hardly what I would call good. Most of his supposed displays of power are acts of destruction. Seldom does he do much to help human beings. I think you really have to think outside the atheist/theist box to get where I am coming from on this. How do you look at this from any other point of view other than Gods exist as described by those who believe or that they are all imaginary. It seems that you are describing something other than what most people would consider a god. If you look at the universe and biological life as we know it I am afraid I cannot come up with any kind of being that you are describing. If you are speaking of alien beings visiting the earth this is in my mind rather improbable given the nature of life as we know it and the numbers involved. I guess you could say anything is possible but I wouldn't put anything on that bet. There is another way to look at it and that would be: why do humans seem to need to believe in some authoritarian figure greater than themselves? It seems to me there is an inherent tendency to motivate them in this direction. |
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naz
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Post by naz on Dec 19, 2009 17:05:37 GMT
Yes, true. That is sort of the point. That there could be something real that people have unreal ideas about.
All I am saying is that it is possible. And that if true it could explain many things.
Yes, that could be true as well.
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Post by ydoaPs on Dec 19, 2009 17:38:13 GMT
Assuming your Stargate scenario proved correct, would you still call these extra-terrestrials 'gods' once you knew what they really were?
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naz
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Post by naz on Dec 19, 2009 19:10:38 GMT
Assuming your Stargate scenario proved correct, would you still call these extra-terrestrials 'gods' once you knew what they really were? that is really the billion dollar question, isn't it. well, at this point, I've not really seen anyone come up with a definition for 'god' that emcompasses everything humans have conceived of as gods. the word is simply nebulous and can be applied to many different kinds of proposed beings. even perfectly normal living human beings have been thought of as gods. so I guess I can still call the being I believe in 'God' even if in fact this being is a product of natural evolution. but I have to admit the idea is somewhat disconcerting. |
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Post by ydoaPs on Dec 20, 2009 0:31:20 GMT
well, at this point, I've not really seen anyone come up with a definition for 'god' that emcompasses everything humans have conceived of as gods. the word is simply nebulous and can be applied to many different kinds of proposed beings. Welcome to Ignosticism! |
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tar
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Post by tar on Jan 8, 2010 3:53:28 GMT
Naz,
The speed of light, seems a problem to me, that even the technologically advanced disembodied souls group-being, would have a hard time overcoming. If it did develope-evolve, it would hold sway only over a tiny corner of the universe, which would still leave the rest of the universe to explain.
Regards, TAR
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tar
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Post by tar on Jan 8, 2010 4:19:54 GMT
Naz,
What about giving the cosmos more of an eternity size timeframe in which to exist. The universe being a phase or state of a continuing cycle of existence. For instance, the big bang being the result following a previous big crunch of an earlier phase of our universe.
This would open the possibility that an evolved entity in one phase could leave "messages" that would survive the crunch and help form the physics and reality of the next phase.
Just a thought.
Regards, TAR
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