Post by ydoaPs on Dec 28, 2009 2:28:31 GMT
Sorry, this thread isn't about the movie with the same title. Since Christmas was a few days ago, I was wondering which birth story people were telling. Personally, I think it's funny to see all the nativity scenes with mangers AND wise men. The two tales barely resemble each other(come on, one has a completely separate set of main characters which are completely absent in the other).
There's just so much about the birth stories that one could write a book just about them!
Matthews version:
Joseph and Mary are living in Bethlehem and are engaged to be married until Joseph finds out that Mary is pregnant and wants to secretly get out of the marriage to avoid any shame. An angel appears to Joseph in a dream and tells him that Mary is a virgin and the baby is a miracle. Joseph then decides to marry Mary anyway. Some wise men from the east find out and ask Herod where the baby is. Herod is all sorts of pissed off that a baby 'King of the Jews' has been born because that's HIS title. So Herod tricks them to go find the baby and report back so he can go pay tribute as well. The wise men then follow a star to Joseph's house where they give baby Jesus gifts. An angel appears to the wise men warning of Herod's intentions so they go home instead of back to Herod. This REALLY ticks Herod off, so he arranges for a massacre of all the infants 2 and under in the area. Joseph is yet again tipped off my an angel in a dream, so they flee to Egypt until Herod dies. After Herod dies, Joseph meets with the Angel in another dream where he is told of Herod's death. Joseph fears that Archelaus(one of Herod's sons) might still want Jesus dead, so he moves to Nazareth instead of moving back home to Bethlehem.
Luke's version:
A bunch of hooplah about John the Baptist's miraculous birth(his parents were old and infertile, but God fixed that[John is 6 months older than Jesus]). An angel appears to Mary and tells her of her impending virginal pregnancy. Caesar Augustus decrees that a census of the whole Roman empire must be made. So, while Quirinius is governor of Syria for the first time, a census is made. Joseph and Mary then leave their Nazareth home to go to Bethlehem to register for the census since Joseph is of David's lineage. Mary has Jesus while they are in Bethlehem, but there is no room in the Inn, so they put Jesus in a manger(trough, for those that don't know) instead of a crib. An angel appears to some shepherds and tell them all about it, so they go to see for themselves. They stay in Bethlehem until all of Jesus's birth stuff is done, then they move back to Nazareth.
Even a surface reading of this passage gives the impression that the stories are very different(the only thing that seems constant is that there is a virgin birth in Bethlehem). Looking a little deeper, we can see that the setting isn't quite the same either; Matthew has the family originally from Bethlehem while Luke has them from Nazareth. A rough familiarization with history shows the settings are even more different than that as the stories are at least 10 years apart.
Herod reigned until his death in 4BC. Upon Herod's death, his kingdom was split among his sons. In 6AD, Herod Archelaus(one of King Herod's sons) was deposed and his land thus fell into Roman control. One of Archelaus's replacements was a man by the name Coponius. At the same time as the appointment of Coponius, Publius Sulpicius Quirinius was appointed governor of Syria in 6AD. Upon the appointment of Quirinius, since this was the first time the land was under Roman control(it was previously only a client kingdom), it was decreed by Caesar Agustus that there should be a census. This census was the first Roman census of the area(it wasn't a census of the entire empire nor were residents required to go to the ancestral home).
This puts us in a bit of a bind, since Jesus was at least almost two BEFORE Herod dies(in 4BC). The soldiers carrying out the massacre would know the difference between a week old baby and a two year old(massacre was of all two and under). It is also assumed that the stay in Egypt lasted longer than a week or so as well unless one posits supernatural help in the death of Herod.
Luke, however, has Jesus being born AFTER Quirinius comes into power in 6AD. This is a real concern since the census is a direct result of Herod's death(along with his son being a poor ruler). Now we have a discrepancy of at least 10 years. That's a pretty big hole if this is supposed to be the same story.
There's just so much about the birth stories that one could write a book just about them!
Matthews version:
Joseph and Mary are living in Bethlehem and are engaged to be married until Joseph finds out that Mary is pregnant and wants to secretly get out of the marriage to avoid any shame. An angel appears to Joseph in a dream and tells him that Mary is a virgin and the baby is a miracle. Joseph then decides to marry Mary anyway. Some wise men from the east find out and ask Herod where the baby is. Herod is all sorts of pissed off that a baby 'King of the Jews' has been born because that's HIS title. So Herod tricks them to go find the baby and report back so he can go pay tribute as well. The wise men then follow a star to Joseph's house where they give baby Jesus gifts. An angel appears to the wise men warning of Herod's intentions so they go home instead of back to Herod. This REALLY ticks Herod off, so he arranges for a massacre of all the infants 2 and under in the area. Joseph is yet again tipped off my an angel in a dream, so they flee to Egypt until Herod dies. After Herod dies, Joseph meets with the Angel in another dream where he is told of Herod's death. Joseph fears that Archelaus(one of Herod's sons) might still want Jesus dead, so he moves to Nazareth instead of moving back home to Bethlehem.
Luke's version:
A bunch of hooplah about John the Baptist's miraculous birth(his parents were old and infertile, but God fixed that[John is 6 months older than Jesus]). An angel appears to Mary and tells her of her impending virginal pregnancy. Caesar Augustus decrees that a census of the whole Roman empire must be made. So, while Quirinius is governor of Syria for the first time, a census is made. Joseph and Mary then leave their Nazareth home to go to Bethlehem to register for the census since Joseph is of David's lineage. Mary has Jesus while they are in Bethlehem, but there is no room in the Inn, so they put Jesus in a manger(trough, for those that don't know) instead of a crib. An angel appears to some shepherds and tell them all about it, so they go to see for themselves. They stay in Bethlehem until all of Jesus's birth stuff is done, then they move back to Nazareth.
Even a surface reading of this passage gives the impression that the stories are very different(the only thing that seems constant is that there is a virgin birth in Bethlehem). Looking a little deeper, we can see that the setting isn't quite the same either; Matthew has the family originally from Bethlehem while Luke has them from Nazareth. A rough familiarization with history shows the settings are even more different than that as the stories are at least 10 years apart.
Herod reigned until his death in 4BC. Upon Herod's death, his kingdom was split among his sons. In 6AD, Herod Archelaus(one of King Herod's sons) was deposed and his land thus fell into Roman control. One of Archelaus's replacements was a man by the name Coponius. At the same time as the appointment of Coponius, Publius Sulpicius Quirinius was appointed governor of Syria in 6AD. Upon the appointment of Quirinius, since this was the first time the land was under Roman control(it was previously only a client kingdom), it was decreed by Caesar Agustus that there should be a census. This census was the first Roman census of the area(it wasn't a census of the entire empire nor were residents required to go to the ancestral home).
This puts us in a bit of a bind, since Jesus was at least almost two BEFORE Herod dies(in 4BC). The soldiers carrying out the massacre would know the difference between a week old baby and a two year old(massacre was of all two and under). It is also assumed that the stay in Egypt lasted longer than a week or so as well unless one posits supernatural help in the death of Herod.
Luke, however, has Jesus being born AFTER Quirinius comes into power in 6AD. This is a real concern since the census is a direct result of Herod's death(along with his son being a poor ruler). Now we have a discrepancy of at least 10 years. That's a pretty big hole if this is supposed to be the same story.
