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Post by ydoaPs on Nov 27, 2009 16:25:20 GMT
Atheism offers the SAME THING theism offers; an response to a metaphysical proposition. Neither offer any more or any less. Neither offer hope, freedom, love, morality, etc. Neither offer a framework for belief; They only offer a metaphysical proposition that informs a framework that the (a)theist may adopt. Everything else are just add-ons that depend on the person and further clarification of their belief. You can't tell anything about a theist's beliefs, other than that they believe in one or more deities, by only knowing that they are a theist. Similarly, you can't know anything about what an atheist believes, other than that they do not believe that one or more deities exist, by knowing only that they are an atheist. To suggest otherwise is intellectually dishonest. The question of "what does atheism offer", imo, is then rather pointless despite it's popularity(and perceived 'gotcha!' appeal) among fundamentalist Christians.
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Post by ydoaPs on Nov 27, 2009 21:34:36 GMT
Now that I think of it, this thread might be better suited for the philosophy section. I think is ok here, though.
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Post by cheekymonkey on Nov 30, 2009 8:01:24 GMT
You know I wouldn't know how to answer this. As far as I can determine evangelizing is just all about trying to hook people at a low ebb and brain washing them. I can't see why one would need or want to do this with atheism. Maybe I'm wrong, but I've never really understood the believing in god thing anyway.
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marco
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Post by marco on Nov 30, 2009 8:27:58 GMT
Atheism offers the SAME THING theism offers; an response to a metaphysical proposition. Neither offer any more or any less. Neither offer hope, freedom, love, morality, etc. Neither offer a framework for belief; They only offer a metaphysical proposition that informs a framework that the (a)theist may adopt. Everything else are just add-ons that depend on the person and further clarification of their belief. You can't tell anything about a theist's beliefs, other than that they believe in one or more deities, by only knowing that they are a theist. Similarly, you can't know anything about what an atheist believes, other than that they do not believe that one or more deities exist, by knowing only that they are an atheist. To suggest otherwise is intellectually dishonest. The question of "what does atheism offer", imo, is then rather pointless despite it's popularity(and perceived 'gotcha!' appeal) among fundamentalist Christians. I agree, But some people make the comparison between a religion & Atheism and starting from the pov of the religion people expect the same from Atheism. From my pov some religions like to give the impression that certain answers must be "known" for a worldview to be correct, so they can put in "their" non-answer, our deity did it. Or at least, it's my interpretation of why so many religious people I encounter keep asking me questions like what's the origin of life/universe if I say I'm an atheist. (And question it as if I require an answer) Marco |
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Post by cheekymonkey on Nov 30, 2009 11:20:35 GMT
I know, it's ludicrous. They have no more idea than I do how life started or what happened beyond the big bang, they are just better at playing pretend. I don't see how making up an answer is more honest than admitting I one doesn't know.
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Post by ydoaPs on Nov 30, 2009 13:40:26 GMT
But some people make the comparison between a religion & Atheism and starting from the pov of the religion people expect the same from Atheism. That's not really a fair comparison. See, religion is a framework and atheism is not. A better comparison would be religion vs humanism or naturalism. |
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Post by dahduh on Nov 30, 2009 17:01:58 GMT
I know, it's ludicrous. They have no more idea than I do how life started or what happened beyond the big bang, they are just better at playing pretend. I don't see how making up an answer is more honest than admitting I one doesn't know. And this is precisely what atheism does have to offer: a point of departure unencumbered by any presuppositions about what is true and what is not. This leaves you free to look at the evidence and decide, based on the evidence, what to believe. And that's a pretty big deal, I think. |
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naz
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Post by naz on Nov 30, 2009 17:22:34 GMT
I know, it's ludicrous. They have no more idea than I do how life started or what happened beyond the big bang, they are just better at playing pretend. I don't see how making up an answer is more honest than admitting I one doesn't know. And this is precisely what atheism does have to offer: a point of departure unencumbered by any presuppositions about what is true and what is not. This leaves you free to look at the evidence and decide, based on the evidence, what to believe. And that's a pretty big deal, I think. Oh c'mon dahduh. that just ain't so. atheists can have lots of presuppositions |
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Post by dahduh on Nov 30, 2009 17:32:49 GMT
And this is precisely what atheism does have to offer: a point of departure unencumbered by any presuppositions about what is true and what is not. This leaves you free to look at the evidence and decide, based on the evidence, what to believe. And that's a pretty big deal, I think. Oh c'mon dahduh. that just ain't so. atheists can have lots of presuppositions Sure, I'll concede I should have qualified the phrase "presuppositions" with "about God", and limited the statement to apply only to weak atheism. And just after posting I thought dang, I should have added the sentence: "This is no guarantee that you will stay an atheist if the evidence leads you in that direction, but at least you are left with the choice." Happier? But the reason I insist that atheism as a starting point is superior to theism is because (weak) atheism includes the possibility that god exists, whereas theism does not include the possibility that god does not exist. |
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naz
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Post by naz on Nov 30, 2009 18:27:41 GMT
Oh c'mon dahduh. that just ain't so. atheists can have lots of presuppositions Sure, I'll concede I should have qualified the phrase "presuppositions" with "about God", and limited the statement to apply only to weak atheism. And just after posting I thought dang, I should have added the sentence: "This is no guarantee that you will stay an atheist if the evidence leads you in that direction, but at least you are left with the choice." Happier? Yes, thanks.  True. |
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Post by ydoaPs on Dec 1, 2009 3:11:55 GMT
I know, it's ludicrous. They have no more idea than I do how life started or what happened beyond the big bang, they are just better at playing pretend. I don't see how making up an answer is more honest than admitting I one doesn't know. And this is precisely what atheism does have to offer: a point of departure unencumbered by any presuppositions about what is true and what is not. This leaves you free to look at the evidence and decide, based on the evidence, what to believe. And that's a pretty big deal, I think. One could make that case for weak atheism. And this is precisely what atheism does have to offer: a point of departure unencumbered by any presuppositions about what is true and what is not. This leaves you free to look at the evidence and decide, based on the evidence, what to believe. And that's a pretty big deal, I think. Oh c'mon dahduh. that just ain't so. atheists can have lots of presuppositions They can, however, they don't have to. |
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soms
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Post by soms on Dec 1, 2009 15:58:13 GMT
Atheism offers the SAME THING theism offers; an response to a metaphysical proposition. Neither offer any more or any less. Neither offer hope, freedom, love, morality, etc. Neither offer a framework for belief; They only offer a metaphysical proposition that informs a framework that the (a)theist may adopt. Everything else are just add-ons that depend on the person and further clarification of their belief. You can't tell anything about a theist's beliefs, other than that they believe in one or more deities, by only knowing that they are a theist. Similarly, you can't know anything about what an atheist believes, other than that they do not believe that one or more deities exist, by knowing only that they are an atheist. To suggest otherwise is intellectually dishonest. The question of "what does atheism offer", imo, is then rather pointless despite it's popularity(and perceived 'gotcha!' appeal) among fundamentalist Christians. interesting ... i have always assumed that theism inspired a belief in more than ourselves...a reason to look past our own misery, remember their is more...i suppose one could do that in atheism as well... i shall have to ponder this one some more... I do believe that religious 'prophets" inspired some of our greatest ideas and teachings...such as the golden rule...loving our enemy... by using the belief in rewards in an after life, etc... thanks for the most interesting thread...: |
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naz
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Post by naz on Dec 1, 2009 16:14:11 GMT
Theists do not have to start out with any presuppositions either.
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Post by I agree on Jan 8, 2010 2:31:41 GMT
i have always assumed that theism inspired a belief in more than ourselves...a reason to look past our own misery, remember their is more...i suppose one could do that in atheism as well... i shall have to ponder this one some more... I do believe that religious 'prophets" inspired some of our greatest ideas and teachings...such as the golden rule...loving our enemy... by using the belief in rewards in an after life, etc... thanks for the most interesting thread...: soms, I agree with you wholeheartedly, and often feel, in this type of discussion, that non theists put too much stress on the unrealistic nature of theist beliefs, and pay too little attention to the actual helpful aspects of the results of such faith and belief in a guiding authority. The fact of whether such an entity exists is not nearly as important as the fact that many humans act as if there is. Whether we are acting on the behalf of a literal or figurative guiding influence, looks about the same, resultwise. Regards, TAR |
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tar
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Post by tar on Jan 8, 2010 2:37:40 GMT
Got the quote thing right. Next I will learn how to log in before I post.
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