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Post by revnkev on Dec 10, 2009 20:05:57 GMT
I will listen to the video again and see if he gives any references.
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Post by revnkev on Dec 10, 2009 20:41:05 GMT
This guy in the video is clearly off in interpretation of the law being abolished and the law being fulfilled and even used them interchangeably in an (or) statement in toward the end of the video.
(referenced at 5:50 in the video)
The law was not giving to be obeyed by humans but to represent to humans where they fail to be perfect and in deed need of a Savior.
Only Jesus was able to fulfill the law.
I will put it in simplistic form.
We can have a speed limit to obey. We have a choice to obey this speed limit because it is a law. Along comes someone who says if you love me you will obey this speed limit law.For which reason would you be obeying the speed limit law? Out of obedience to the law or out of love?
Once the cars and roads are done away with, what need be for the law?
Point being also with the law of love, if you love your neighbor then that law of not killing him is fulfilled in that love since
you would not kill him if you loved him.
In like manner the law of love is perfected in Jesus sacrifice on the cross and to walk in this love through faith fulfills all other laws. This is why two greatest commandments are to love God with all of your heart, mind and soul and to love your neighbor as yourself.
What was Jesus referring to when he said this? And what was his purpose here again or why did he say he came?
The reasons Christians are not to follow the law are not because they have been fulfilled but because it can't be done period.
Jesus taught us to walk by love and not by laws because laws are fulfilled through love.
This guys interpretation in the video is off again in this area.
It is interesting to hear logical points of view on spiritual truths though.
It clearly shows how the carnal mind is at enmity with God.
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Suluby
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Post by Suluby on Dec 10, 2009 22:32:52 GMT
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive. I fail to see which laws will not be fulfilled if one walks in perfect love?
How can any law be fulfilled and no longer observed/obeyed?
Isn't that concept like saying, "The law says that we must stop at red lights. My Grandfather stopped at red lights ..... he fulfilled the law. I don't ever have to stop at red lights anymore."
The laws in question say that they are to be obeyed for all time by all upon whom obedience to the law is incumbent. The Law itself tells us that no one can fulfill it so that others do not have to pay it any attention.
IMO, this fits in quite well with Paul attempting to proselytize to non-Jews ...... without the hassle of following Torah Law to give them pause.
And how does doing away with observance of the Law fit in with Jesus' statement that not a jot or a tittle of the Torah should be disregarded?
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Suluby
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Post by Suluby on Dec 10, 2009 22:37:36 GMT
To fulfill the law is not the same as doing away with the law. And Jesus didn't do either. In fact, he made the Law more strict and at the same time said when he will fulfill the Law. He said to follow the letter of the Law until he fulfills it when Heaven and Earth pass away. He will do away with the Law when he fulfills it, he just hasn't done it yet. He didn't. He will fulfill it in the second coming. Jesus taught very explicitly on works salvation(at least according to the author of Matthew).
Then - based on what Jesus said everybody who believes in him should be observing Torah law because it has not been fulfilled yet.
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Suluby
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Post by Suluby on Dec 10, 2009 22:41:32 GMT
This guy in the video is clearly off in interpretation of the law being abolished and the law being fulfilled and even used them interchangeably in an (or) statement in toward the end of the video. (referenced at 5:50 in the video) The law was not giving to be obeyed by humans but to represent to humans where they fail to be perfect and in deed need of a Savior. Only Jesus was able to fulfill the law. I will put it in simplistic form. We can have a speed limit to obey. We have a choice to obey this speed limit because it is a law. Along comes someone who says if you love me you will obey this speed limit law.For which reason would you be obeying the speed limit law? Out of obedience to the law or out of love? Once the cars and roads are done away with, what need be for the law? Point being also with the law of love, if you love your neighbor then that law of not killing him is fulfilled in that love since you would not kill him if you loved him. In like manner the law of love is perfected in Jesus sacrifice on the cross and to walk in this love through faith fulfills all other laws. This is why two greatest commandments are to love God with all of your heart, mind and soul and to love your neighbor as yourself. What was Jesus referring to when he said this? And what was his purpose here again or why did he say he came? The reasons Christians are not to follow the law are not because they have been fulfilled but because it can't be done period. That's not true. Millions of people all over the world obey Torah law every day. It is entirely possible to obey all the relevant mitzvot (laws). Jesus taught us to walk by love and not by laws because laws are fulfilled through love. This guys interpretation in the video is off again in this area. It is interesting to hear logical points of view on spiritual truths though. It clearly shows how the carnal mind is at enmity with God. |
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naz
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Post by naz on Dec 10, 2009 23:19:11 GMT
I think what we see in the NT are two opposing and contradictory streams of thought. One exemplified by the Gospel of Matthew, the Letter of James, and possibly the Johannine epistles, represents a law keeping sect (although the Torah as reinterpreted by Christ). The other exemplified by Paul's letters, and even more radically by the Gospel of John, represents an antinomian spirit which broke with Torah conventions. The former continued for a while among Jewish Christians but eventually died out. The latter morphed into Gnosticism as well as the official Christianity of the Roman church.
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Post by revnkev on Dec 11, 2009 5:47:55 GMT
Galations CH. 3
10For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
15Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
16Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
19Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
20Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
21Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Also please keep in mind that the law of the old testament was written for God's covenant with Jews and not the gentiles.
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naz
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Post by naz on Dec 11, 2009 15:49:55 GMT
That's a fine statement of Paul's views. But they really do not line up with what is said in the OT concerning the law nor with Jesus' own statements.
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naz
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Post by naz on Dec 11, 2009 16:23:18 GMT
Jesus' own statements on the Law:
Mat 5:17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
Mat 5:18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
Mat 7:12 Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.
Mat 12:5 Or have you not read in the law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath, and are blameless?
Mat 22:38-40 This is [the] first and great commandment. And [the] second [is] like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."
Mat 23:23 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier [matters] of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.
Luk 10:25-28 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" He said to him, "What is written in the law? What is your reading [of it]?" So he answered and said, "'You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,' and 'your neighbor as yourself.' " And He said to him, "You have answered rightly; do this and you will live."
Luk 16:16-17 The law and the prophets [were] until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it. And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail.
Jhn 7:19 Did not Moses give you the law, yet none of you keeps the law?
Jhn 7:23 If a man receives circumcision on the Sabbath, so that the law of Moses should not be broken, are you angry with Me because I made a man completely well on the Sabbath?
Jhn 8:17 It is also written in your law that the testimony of two men is true.
Jhn 10:34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, 'I said, "You are gods" '?
Jhn 15:25 But [this happened] that the word might be fulfilled which is written in their law, 'They hated Me without a cause.'
[commentary to follow]
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naz
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Post by naz on Dec 11, 2009 17:41:54 GMT
It's impossible to objectively know whether or not Jesus made all or any of the statements attributed to him. All we can do is analyze the statements at face value and see if they are internally in harmony with one another. So that is what I will attempt to do here.
From the recorded statements one would have to conclude that Jesus believed in and upheld the Law as God's standards for righteous behavior. "Do this and live". It is in keeping the Law that eternal life is to be found. But he seems to have had quite a different interpretation of it as compared to his contemporaries and seems to stress the inner spirit and essence of it more than anything else. He sees it as summed up in the comand to love God and neighbor. "Justice, mercy, and faith" are far more important than the paying of tithes. To heal a man on the Sabbath is an act of loving kindness which trumps any legalistic observance of Sabbath laws.
To ignore these "weightier" matters of the Law leads to his charge that his co-religionists are not really keeping it all. So much so that he even draws distinction between what he sees as God's true law as opposed to "their law".
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Post by revnkev on Dec 11, 2009 18:40:21 GMT
This one verse sums up what I will call my opinion and belief on this subject.
Jesus preached the law onto the Pharisees and Sadducees(self righteous and religious) and taught grace to the sinners and those who repented.
If righteousness is able to be found in the law, what is the purpose of Christ's crucifixion? Do you think it was in vain? If it was to take the burdens of our sins on the cross, is sin something other than a transgression of the law?
I am still curious as to at what point was the law given to gentiles?
And also remember if you break one law is the same as breaking them all and you no longer can be justified by the law even if it was broken out of an act of kindness.
I will call this the law of love because Jesus summed up all laws into two as Love god with all of your heart, soul, and mind and your neighbor as yourself.
Would you rather have your wife be faithful because of the law or out of love?
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naz
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Post by naz on Dec 11, 2009 19:03:34 GMT
This one verse sums up what I will call my opinion and belief on this subject. Jesus preached the law onto the Pharisees and Sadducees(self righteous and religious) and taught grace to the sinners and those who repented. If righteousness is able to be found in the law, what is the purpose of Christ's crucifixion? Do you think it was in vain? If it was to take the burdens of our sins on the cross, is sin something other than a transgression of the law? This pretty much sums up my own take on that: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christus_VictorWell according to Judaism the universal Seven Laws of Noah were all given to Adam. Again a Christian view not in harmony with Jewish views based on Jewish Scripture. I'm not trying to give my own opinion here. Just my own take on Scripture. |
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Post by revnkev on Dec 11, 2009 19:45:13 GMT
Is this scripture based and if so would be interested in them?
True, Christianity is based on Jesus and the writings in the new testament. Many jews don't believe Jesus is the savior either.
If we are to only interpret scripture and then Jewish OT at that then it would be rather fruitless for some such as myself who is a gentile unless of course there is scripture to prove the law was given to all mankind and not just Israel.
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Post by revnkev on Dec 11, 2009 20:01:30 GMT
Jeremiah 31:31-34
31 "The time is coming," declares the LORD,
"when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.
32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to [d] them, [e] "
declares the LORD.
33 "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time," declares the LORD.
"I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,'
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,"
declares the LORD.
"For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."
I am curious to your interpretation of this scripture here?
I interpret this to mean we will follow laws out of love instead of obedience to the commandments of a law.
If we are going to only interpret literally then how will it be written in our hearts and how is that interpreted?
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naz
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Post by naz on Dec 11, 2009 22:28:30 GMT
Jeremiah 31:31-34 31 "The time is coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. 32 It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to [d] them, [e] " declares the LORD. 33 "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time," declares the LORD. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. 34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest," declares the LORD. "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more." I am curious to your interpretation of this scripture here? I think the prophecy fits very well with what happened. |
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