Who told the truth?

[naz]

Nov 29, 2009 17:23:11 GMT dahduh said:

Nov 29, 2009 16:43:38 GMT naz said:

For which statement? These are more or less my own conclusions based on my own research but others have come to similar conclusions. I hope to write more on this at some point.

Hmm. You're going to have to make a strong case; from a purely statistical point of view, considering the number of proto-gods that have been put forward, the a prior odds are that you are wrong.

not following you

[dahduh]

Nov 29, 2009 17:49:05 GMT naz said:

Nov 29, 2009 17:23:11 GMT dahduh said:

Hmm. You're going to have to make a strong case; from a purely statistical point of view, considering the number of proto-gods that have been put forward, the a prior odds are that you are wrong.

not following you

I mean, if I understand you correctly, you are advancing the position that Jesus is the true God and that Yahweh is not. Which puts you in the same position as a hundred other people running around claiming to know who the true God is. You can't all be right, so the odds are that you are wrong.

[naz]

Nov 29, 2009 18:25:47 GMT dahduh said:

Nov 29, 2009 17:49:05 GMT naz said:

not following you

I mean, if I understand you correctly, you are advancing the position that Jesus is the true God and that Yahweh is not. Which puts you in the same position as a hundred other people running around claiming to know who the true God is. You can't all be right, so the odds are that you are wrong.

No, I don't consider Jesus to be God (and neither did he from what I can tell). Mainly my view is like the Gnostic one that he was aeon.

Anyway, I was more just talking about what I think Jesus himself had to say.

[marco]

Nov 28, 2009 16:53:15 GMT naz said:

In the garden of Eden story? I think the serpent did. I can't read it any other way.

God said the couple would die "on the day [they] eat thereof". The serpent told them that wasn't true and that instead their eyes would be opened and they would be like God (knowing good and evil).

Does anyone disagree?

I'm not an expert here, but do you think you can not "stretch" the story from God's pov? (I thought that's the big advantage of the bible, there's just about nothing that can not be interpretated from it )

For example, how long is a day for God?
Or, he (partially) showed understanding and mercy for their choice.

Marco

[naz]

Nov 30, 2009 8:11:42 GMT marco said:

Nov 28, 2009 16:53:15 GMT naz said:

In the garden of Eden story? I think the serpent did. I can't read it any other way.

God said the couple would die "on the day [they] eat thereof". The serpent told them that wasn't true and that instead their eyes would be opened and they would be like God (knowing good and evil).

Does anyone disagree?

I'm not an expert here, but do you think you can not "stretch" the story from God's pov? (I thought that's the big advantage of the bible, there's just about nothing that can not be interpretated from it )

For example, how long is a day for God?
Or, he (partially) showed understanding and mercy for their choice.

Marco

I could play devil's advocate for "God" but I'm not. I am just reading the story at face value. At the very least he changed his mind (he does that a lot in the OT) or at worst he out and out lied. Even if he meant something different by "day" how would Adam know that? Adam is said to have lived 900 years after eating from the tree. Besides that Adam was not immortal anyway because later the text says the tree of life had to be protected lest he eat of it and live forever.

[revnkev]

In the garden of Eden story? I think the serpent did. I can't read it any other way.

God said the couple would die "on the day [they] eat thereof". The serpent told them that wasn't true and that instead their eyes would be opened and they would be like God (knowing good and evil).

Does anyone disagree?

Is the scripture talking physically or spiritually?

3In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."

4"How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"

5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You[c] must be born again.' 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

Why must the spirit be born or man be born again?
Is it perhaps the spirit has died in man?

Also do you think being born again is spiritual or physical just as the death of man in Genesis?

[naz]

Is the scripture talking physically or spiritually?

I don't think that is made clear. But the word used refers to physical death.

Why must the spirit be born or man be born again?
Is it perhaps the spirit has died in man?

I think spirit is used to denote the eternal life giving force of God. So that cannot die.

Also do you think being born again is spiritual or physical just as the death of man in Genesis?

I think the new birth is spiritual in nature. It denotes an internal change.

[revnkev]

1 Timothy 5

3Give proper recognition to those widows who are really in need. 4But if a widow has children or grandchildren, these should learn first of all to put their religion into practice by caring for their own family and so repaying their parents and grandparents, for this is pleasing to God. 5The widow who is really in need and left all alone puts her hope in God and continues night and day to pray and to ask God for help. 6But the widow who lives for pleasure is dead even while she lives. 7Give the people these instructions, too, so that no one may be open to blame. 8If anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his immediate family, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

In verse 5, the widow is dead even while she lives?
If she is physically still alive and she can't be dead spiritually,
What other alternative explanation could there be?

[naz]

Dec 10, 2009 22:05:12 GMT revnkev said:

1 Timothy 5



In verse 5, the widow is dead even while she lives?
If she is physically still alive and she can't be dead spiritually,
What other alternative explanation could there be?

I was just saying that I don't think the spirit as described in the bible can die. But one can be spiritually dead in a sense.

[revnkev]

I will have to get back later because I am stepping out to see this movie called the Christmas Carol with Jim Carey,

I believe it's about this man who is dead spiritually and then brought back to life through the awakening experiences of his past.

Anyway will give a shout later!

[tripolation]

Dam...I wish I understood this thread.
;D

[marco]

Nov 30, 2009 16:20:11 GMT naz said:

Nov 30, 2009 8:11:42 GMT marco said:

I'm not an expert here, but do you think you can not "stretch" the story from God's pov? (I thought that's the big advantage of the bible, there's just about nothing that can not be interpretated from it )

For example, how long is a day for God?
Or, he (partially) showed understanding and mercy for their choice.

Marco

I could play devil's advocate for "God" but I'm not. I am just reading the story at face value. At the very least he changed his mind (he does that a lot in the OT) or at worst he out and out lied.

Only from your perspective

Nov 30, 2009 16:20:11 GMT naz said:

Even if he meant something different by "day" how would Adam know that? Adam is said to have lived 900 years after eating from the tree. Besides that Adam was not immortal anyway because later the text says the tree of life had to be protected lest he eat of it and live forever.

Is Adam's knowledge a limit for God?

Marco

[naz]

Dec 11, 2009 8:48:24 GMT marco said:

Nov 30, 2009 16:20:11 GMT naz said:

I could play devil's advocate for "God" but I'm not. I am just reading the story at face value. At the very least he changed his mind (he does that a lot in the OT) or at worst he out and out lied.

Only from your perspective

Yes of course.

Nov 30, 2009 16:20:11 GMT naz said:

Even if he meant something different by "day" how would Adam know that? Adam is said to have lived 900 years after eating from the tree. Besides that Adam was not immortal anyway because later the text says the tree of life had to be protected lest he eat of it and live forever.

Is Adam's knowledge a limit for God?

No. But what good is a warning if you don't understand the actual consequences?

[marco]

Dec 11, 2009 15:43:30 GMT naz said:

Dec 11, 2009 8:48:24 GMT marco said:

Is Adam's knowledge a limit for God?

No. But what good is a warning if you don't understand the actual consequences?

I do not understand you here.

If what you wrote is from Adam's pov, it seems to support my point.

If what you wrote is from God's pov, how does God not understand the actual consequences?

If it's meant differently, please explain.

Marco

[naz]

Dec 15, 2009 15:08:39 GMT marco said:

Dec 11, 2009 15:43:30 GMT naz said:

No. But what good is a warning if you don't understand the actual consequences?

I do not understand you here.

If what you wrote is from Adam's pov, it seems to support my point.

If what you wrote is from God's pov, how does God not understand the actual consequences?

If it's meant differently, please explain.

Marco

What I mean is this. If I tell you if you do x the consequences are y but you don't have the slightest clue as to what y is then how is it in any way a warning?